Zappa vs. Prostate Cancer........

[JYOB]

.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???

How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it wuz
too late???? Hmmmm......

Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!


And Frank had $$$$$ & could afford *good* doctors!!

What's wrong with this picture????

A simple blood test should have been able to show that something wuz up!!!


Any thoughts.....ideas??????


The old geezer

(Who just went for a CATSCAN for abdominal pain today)

NP: - Jerry Garcia Band - How Sweet It Is

[Amlyn]

Didn;t he put it down to back ache from carrying guitars around his neck and
so dismissed it?

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it wuz
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!
And Frank had $$$$$ & could afford *good* doctors!!
What's wrong with this picture????
A simple blood test should have been able to show that something wuz up!!!
Any thoughts.....ideas??????
The old geezer
(Who just went for a CATSCAN for abdominal pain today)
NP: - Jerry Garcia Band - How Sweet It Is

[Bill]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Amlyn]

Like any of us he would've gone to the doctors once he realised that this
pain was'nt gwain away - so it must've been shitty doctors...I guess.

Post by Bill

Post by Amlyn
Didn;t he put it down to back ache from carrying guitars around his neck and
so dismissed it?

one leg being shorter than the other or
prostate cancer
Chronic urinary tract problems could be attributed to (among other
venereal infections, or
prostate cancer
It is uncommon for a white guy in his 40's to have prostate cancer,
but Frank did have a history of one leg being shorter than the
other and venereal infections.
His medical history does not excuse the misdiagnoses,
but makes them understandable.

[Bill]

Post by Amlyn
Like any of us he would've gone to the doctors once he realised that this
pain was'nt gwain away - so it must've been shitty doctors...I guess.

So Frank should have expected the back pain from one leg being shorter
than the other to go away over time?

Post by Amlyn

Post by Bill

Post by Amlyn
Didn;t he put it down to back ache from carrying guitars around his neck

and

Post by Bill

Post by Amlyn
so dismissed it?

one leg being shorter than the other or
prostate cancer
Chronic urinary tract problems could be attributed to (among other
venereal infections, or
prostate cancer
It is uncommon for a white guy in his 40's to have prostate cancer,
but Frank did have a history of one leg being shorter than the
other and venereal infections.
His medical history does not excuse the misdiagnoses,
but makes them understandable.

[Amlyn]

Yes

Post by Bill

Post by Amlyn
Like any of us he would've gone to the doctors once he realised that this
pain was'nt gwain away - so it must've been shitty doctors...I guess.

So Frank should have expected the back pain from one leg being shorter
than the other to go away over time?

Post by Amlyn

Post by Bill

Post by Amlyn
Didn;t he put it down to back ache from carrying guitars around his neck

and

Post by Bill

Post by Amlyn
so dismissed it?

one leg being shorter than the other or
prostate cancer
Chronic urinary tract problems could be attributed to (among other
venereal infections, or
prostate cancer
It is uncommon for a white guy in his 40's to have prostate cancer,
but Frank did have a history of one leg being shorter than the
other and venereal infections.
His medical history does not excuse the misdiagnoses,
but makes them understandable.

[John Henley]

Post by Bill
His medical history does not excuse the misdiagnoses,
but makes them understandable.

Whenever this subject comes up there is a
basic assumption that "Frank's doctors [always
plural] misdiagnosed him" accompanied of course
by an underlying conclusion that they were criminally
negligent.

I don't think any such thing has ever been conclusively
shown and to make such a claim is nothing more than
opinion.

Everyone, read Doc Scialli's post on this. He knows
what he's talking about.

John H

[Ogden Freen]

Post by John Henley

Post by Bill
His medical history does not excuse the misdiagnoses,
but makes them understandable.

Whenever this subject comes up there is a
basic assumption that "Frank's doctors [always
plural] misdiagnosed him" accompanied of course
by an underlying conclusion that they were criminally
negligent.
I don't think any such thing has ever been conclusively
shown and to make such a claim is nothing more than
opinion.
Everyone, read Doc Scialli's post on this. He knows
what he's talking about.
John H

Right on.

Sure, none of us thought FZ would leave us early.
Some of us are still bitter about it.
But don't heap it onto the doctor's shoulders.
These things happen.
So it goes...

[Bill]

Post by Ogden Freen

Post by John Henley

Post by Bill
His medical history does not excuse the misdiagnoses,
but makes them understandable.

Whenever this subject comes up there is a
basic assumption that "Frank's doctors [always
plural] misdiagnosed him" accompanied of course
by an underlying conclusion that they were criminally
negligent.
I don't think any such thing has ever been conclusively
shown and to make such a claim is nothing more than
opinion.
Everyone, read Doc Scialli's post on this. He knows
what he's talking about.
John H

Right on.
Sure, none of us thought FZ would leave us early.
Some of us are still bitter about it.
But don't heap it onto the doctor's shoulders.
These things happen.
So it goes...

I don't see where Dr. John and I disagree.

[John Henley]

Post by Bill
I don't see where Dr. John and I disagree.

Depends upon how you use the word "misdiagnosis"
and whether you think physicians ever get to be humanly
fallible.

[Bill]

Post by John Henley

Post by Bill
I don't see where Dr. John and I disagree.

Depends upon how you use the word "misdiagnosis"
and whether you think physicians ever get to be humanly
fallible.

Obviously, they are fallible.
How else do they make a mistaken diagnosis? ;)

[Strictly Commercial]

Post by Bill
Obviously, they are fallible.
How else do they make a mistaken diagnosis? ;)

The first indication I had that FZ was seriously ill was a short wire
story that appeared in my local newspaper in 1991 or 1992. My memory of
it is that he was passing through Chicago (from/to NY?), a reporter
asked him about his illness, and he said something acknowledging that it
was grave, that (I paraphrase from memory) things go wrong with the
human body and sometimes doctors can fix it and sometimes they can't and
this was one of those instances where they can't. If this was an
accurate reflection of FZ's feelings, he seems to have been stoical
about ("resigned to") his fate, and bore little rancour for his doctors.

I've also heard that there are significant differences between prostate
cancer contracted by older men (quite common; I understand a significant
proportion of us guys die with --- not from --- prostate cancer but have
no knowledge of it) and that contracted by younger men. The latter was
said to progress faster, be more likely to metastasize, and on the whole
was harder to treat in spite of the relative youth and vigor of its
victims. Maybe FZ never had chance, regardless of how soon his illness
was diagnosed. Unfortunately, cancers often do not manifest themselves
at all until they have metastasized and/or caused serious havoc.

It also seems distinctly possible that exposure to toxins in his
environment early in life may have contributed to his illness. I think
of those military experiments his Dad brought home to earn extra $$ to
better support his young family. And then there's the proximity while FZ
was growing up of all those military and industrial establishments. Nine
Types of Industrial Pollution indeed ...

Rolf

[Leonard Los]

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:09:25 GMT, Strictly Commercial

Post by Strictly Commercial
It also seems distinctly possible that exposure to toxins in his
environment early in life may have contributed to his illness. I think
of those military experiments his Dad brought home to earn extra $$ to
better support his young family. And then there's the proximity while FZ
was growing up of all those military and industrial establishments. Nine
Types of Industrial Pollution indeed ...
Rolf

That industrial pollution will do the trick!!!
I have lived in an industrial city, well
it was until the economy and outsourcing
took it's toll, all my life and the cancer
rate was above average.
When I was a kid , I remembered
smoke billowing out of those
industrial chimneys and the
river that ran through the city
was a different color every day
from the chemicals that were thrown in
it from these companies.
Then everbody wonders why
the cancer rate goes up.

L.L.

[MASTERNINJA]

On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 20:41:42 GMT, Leonard Los

Post by Leonard Los
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 01:09:25 GMT, Strictly Commercial

Post by Strictly Commercial
It also seems distinctly possible that exposure to toxins in his
environment early in life may have contributed to his illness. I think
of those military experiments his Dad brought home to earn extra $$ to
better support his young family. And then there's the proximity while FZ
was growing up of all those military and industrial establishments. Nine
Types of Industrial Pollution indeed ...
Rolf

That industrial pollution will do the trick!!!
I have lived in an industrial city, well
it was until the economy and outsourcing
took it's toll, all my life and the cancer
rate was above average.
When I was a kid , I remembered
smoke billowing out of those
industrial chimneys and the
river that ran through the city
was a different color every day
from the chemicals that were thrown in
it from these companies.
Then everbody wonders why
the cancer rate goes up.
L.L.

THATS THE SECRET BEHIND WHY THE US IS SHIPPING ALL THE MANUFACTURING
OVER SEAS

NO MORE ROOM FOR ANY MORE POLLUTION HERE

[John Henley]

Post by Bill
Obviously, they are fallible.
How else do they make a mistaken diagnosis? ;)

But the question was: Do they GET to be?
Obviously they are, but is this a natural thing,
or a BAAADDD thing?

[Stan]

Keep in mind that the US has a for-profit healthcare system. Therefore
American doctors and hospitals make a lot more money off patients by
treating serious illnesses than by trying to prevent them.

--Stan

"The future will be better tomorrow."
--George W. Bush

[MASTERNINJA]

Post by Stan
Keep in mind that the US has a for-profit healthcare system. Therefore
American doctors and hospitals make a lot more money off patients by
treating serious illnesses than by trying to prevent them.
--Stan
"The future will be better tomorrow."
--George W. Bush

finally something we agree on

now are most doctors demorates or republicans

id bet its split 50/50


the ama is almighty and powerful


of course if you want national health

expect to cough up a lot more tax dollars about 9500 per year !

[Marc Rosen]

Post by Amlyn
Didn;t he put it down to back ache from carrying guitars around his neck and
so dismissed it?

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it

wuz

Post by JYOB
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!

I agree with Amlyn's comment. I think Frank put off going to the docs
untill the disease had metastasized- then it was too late. Although
most men end up dying with prostate cancer, relatively very few die
from it. The problem is the mets. Prostate cancer is slower growing
than many other malignancies and the best treatments in the world for
other cancers won't work because it is difficult to hit large number
of tumor cells with sufficient drugs at the proper time in their cell
cycle to cause cell death. You'd need to bombard the patient with so
much chemotherapy that the effects of the drug will kill the patient
before the tumor cells are diminished.
I am a research technician/scientist who has been involved in drug
developmnet for prostate cancer since 1999 (though I've worked with pc
patients and drugs longer than that- it had not been in the
development stage). As you have surmised, it is a tough disease to
treat. We are trying to develop drugs that are similar to a Trojan
Horse. A less toxic variant of a know toxic drug is administered.
The drug has an affinity for pc cells and accumulates there.
Additionally, specific enzymes- such as PSA- in the tumor cells work
to activate the "pro-drug" to its more cytotoxic variant. If the drug
gets in to normal cells- and it will because the system is not
perfect- the lack of enzymatic action should not liberate the more
active species.
This way you can target the pc tumor from a broad administration
approach. The problems are that despite the designed specificity,
there is a lot of non specific activation because your body makes
millions of enzymes that can work similarly to PSA, so a liver enzyme
may cause activation at that location.
A lot of mice die for this and other data.
But as I said in many earlier posts, FZ is playing on every computer
in the four labs I work in so it's my own type of surround-sound.
Walk out of one room and into another and feel the transition of
leaving Montanna while arriving in In France. Couldn't ask for a
better work enviroment.

Marc(who wishes now that he did not concentrate on buying property and
building his house during the mid to late 80's because he missed out
on the tours -DAMN!)

[David Z]

Prostate cancer is slower growing than many other malignancies...

Prostate cancers range from very fast growing to slow growing. Slow
growing prosate cancer is the most common form and may not cause any
symptoms or shorten life.

I am a research technician/scientist who has been involved in drug
developmnet for prostate cancer since 1999 (though I've worked with pc
patients and drugs longer than that- it had not been in the
development stage).

So, how come you didn't know this very basic fact about prostate cancer?

You'd need to bombard the patient with so
much chemotherapy that the effects of the drug will kill the patient
before the tumor cells are diminished.

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. Ya know?

As you have surmised, it is a tough disease to treat.

That's an understatement.

[Gerhard Beulke]

Post by Marc Rosen
Marc(who wishes now that he did not concentrate on buying property and
building his house during the mid to late 80's because he missed out

Lucky me who took time off to travel to Frankfurt to see him one more
time (what a short time later proofed to be his last ever concert).
:(

[purple]

On 11/20/04 7:07 AM, in article

Post by Marc Rosen

Post by Amlyn
Didn;t he put it down to back ache from carrying guitars around his neck and
so dismissed it?

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it

wuz

Post by JYOB
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!

I agree with Amlyn's comment. I think Frank put off going to the docs
untill the disease had metastasized- then it was too late. Although
most men end up dying with prostate cancer, relatively very few die
from it. The problem is the mets. Prostate cancer is slower growing
than many other malignancies and the best treatments in the world for
other cancers won't work because it is difficult to hit large number
of tumor cells with sufficient drugs at the proper time in their cell
cycle to cause cell death. You'd need to bombard the patient with so
much chemotherapy that the effects of the drug will kill the patient
before the tumor cells are diminished.
I am a research technician/scientist who has been involved in drug
developmnet for prostate cancer since 1999 (though I've worked with pc
patients and drugs longer than that- it had not been in the
development stage). As you have surmised, it is a tough disease to
treat. We are trying to develop drugs that are similar to a Trojan
Horse. A less toxic variant of a know toxic drug is administered.
The drug has an affinity for pc cells and accumulates there.
Additionally, specific enzymes- such as PSA- in the tumor cells work
to activate the "pro-drug" to its more cytotoxic variant. If the drug
gets in to normal cells- and it will because the system is not
perfect- the lack of enzymatic action should not liberate the more
active species.
This way you can target the pc tumor from a broad administration
approach. The problems are that despite the designed specificity,
there is a lot of non specific activation because your body makes
millions of enzymes that can work similarly to PSA, so a liver enzyme
may cause activation at that location.
A lot of mice die for this and other data.
But as I said in many earlier posts, FZ is playing on every computer
in the four labs I work in so it's my own type of surround-sound.
Walk out of one room and into another and feel the transition of
leaving Montanna while arriving in In France. Couldn't ask for a
better work enviroment.
Marc(who wishes now that he did not concentrate on buying property and
building his house during the mid to late 80's because he missed out
on the tours -DAMN!)

Ever listen to Gary Null?


Bob Dobbs

[John Scialli]

PSA was not in clinical use in the 70's and 80's
when he started having pain. He was not
diagnosed until he was obstructed. Because
he had been non-compliant with his casting
for the push-off-the-stage injuries,
he'd had a tipped pelvis and chronic
lower back pain. So the urinary (suspect
it was this sort although not sure it was ever specified)
obstruction was his first new symptom in years.
Also I bet he never allowed any pushin'
of his cushion at the "end" of his
physicals exams, neither.

Also, remember GZ has always been in favor
of non-traditional medical
interventions and explanation.

-J (still practicing medicine until I get it right)

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it wuz
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!
And Frank had $$$$$ & could afford *good* doctors!!
What's wrong with this picture????
A simple blood test should have been able to show that something wuz up!!!
Any thoughts.....ideas??????
The old geezer
(Who just went for a CATSCAN for abdominal pain today)
NP: - Jerry Garcia Band - How Sweet It Is

[purple]

What would GZ think of Gary Null?


Bob Dobbs

Post by John Scialli
PSA was not in clinical use in the 70's and 80's
when he started having pain. He was not
diagnosed until he was obstructed. Because
he had been non-compliant with his casting
for the push-off-the-stage injuries,
he'd had a tipped pelvis and chronic
lower back pain. So the urinary (suspect
it was this sort although not sure it was ever specified)
obstruction was his first new symptom in years.
Also I bet he never allowed any pushin'
of his cushion at the "end" of his
physicals exams, neither.
Also, remember GZ has always been in favor
of non-traditional medical
interventions and explanation.
-J (still practicing medicine until I get it right)

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it wuz
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!
And Frank had $$$$$ & could afford *good* doctors!!
What's wrong with this picture????
A simple blood test should have been able to show that something wuz up!!!
Any thoughts.....ideas??????
The old geezer
(Who just went for a CATSCAN for abdominal pain today)
NP: - Jerry Garcia Band - How Sweet It Is

[Greg Carson]

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it wuz
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!
And Frank had $$$$$ & could afford *good* doctors!!
What's wrong with this picture????
A simple blood test should have been able to show that something wuz up!!!
Any thoughts.....ideas??????
The old geezer
(Who just went for a CATSCAN for abdominal pain today)
NP: - Jerry Garcia Band - How Sweet It Is

That is a good question, with a family history of enlarged prostate,
and mine is already, has been for a couple of years and I am only a
tender 48 I get a PSA (blood test for P.C.) every year.

Greg

[Jim is CNC]

I always thought FZ's illness came as a result of his fear of Doctors that
developed when he was a child and got hot oil poured in his ears.

And I also thought he was sprayed with a death ray from james baker of the bush
one administration after he made his wife look like a fool at the pmrc hearings
and then FZ started migrating into politics all the way to seriously
considering running for president.

-jim

[purple]

On 11/24/04 7:33 PM, in article

Post by Jim is CNC
I always thought FZ's illness came as a result of his fear of Doctors that
developed when he was a child and got hot oil poured in his ears.
And I also thought he was sprayed with a death ray from james baker of the bush
one administration after he made his wife look like a fool at the pmrc hearings
and then FZ started migrating into politics all the way to seriously
considering running for president.
-jim

Yes, Zappa was murdered. I remember when he announced during some concert in
'88 that SIXTY MINUTES was going to interview him, I knew there was going to
be trouble.

And sure enough they never broadcast it but Frank got real sick within a
year or so. I think something else got into him.

They used to call it the "TIME cover" curse.


Bob Dobbs

[The old geezer]

Greg: are you still healthy!!

[purple]

On 11/19/04 5:47 PM, in article

Post by JYOB
.....What's the Deal with Frank & This killer disease???
How did numerous doctors misdiagnose this condition for 10 years until it wuz
too late???? Hmmmm......
Zappa had abdominal pains since the early '80's....underwent numerous
tests....& it wuz never diagnosed??????? Very Odd!!!!
And Frank had $$$$$ & could afford *good* doctors!!
What's wrong with this picture????
A simple blood test should have been able to show that something wuz up!!!
Any thoughts.....ideas??????
The old geezer
(Who just went for a CATSCAN for abdominal pain today)
NP: - Jerry Garcia Band - How Sweet It Is

Zappa was murdered. I remember when he announced during some concert in '88
that SIXTY MINUTES was going to interview him, I knew there was going to be
trouble.

And sure enough they never broadcast it but Frank got real sick within a
year or so. I think something else got into him.

They used to call it the "TIME cover" curse.


Bob Dobbs